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Post by besthaticouldo on Sept 26, 2013 13:06:23 GMT -6
you don't need a tune for the AEM CAI. you can run it on a stage 1 tune and be perfectly fine. it's the same diameter maf and the maf will get the same voltage readings that the stock airbox would have gotten.
i ran my AEM CAI for probably 5-6 months without an accessport. so it's not a huge deal.
don't open source if you already have an accessport, that's just silly. if you need a tune pay a professional, you're talking a 25k car with thousands in mods and you're going to trust yourself. unless you really have the time to devote to learning how to properly tune every aspect of the car, i'd just as soon pay eric at TP or someone to tune the car. it's not worth the time involved, IMO.
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Post by besthaticouldo on Sept 26, 2013 13:51:01 GMT -6
I agree with besthaticouldo about the open source path. Don't go that route unless you want to REALLY get into the tuning aspect. You really need to do your homework if you're going to do it. Plus, you already invested in an AP, so you might as well use it since it's not compatible with the Open Source apps (ECU Flash, Rom Raider, etc...). As far as the CAI upgrade and what not. I would still log/tune for it just in case. Just because one person ran fine with it, doesn't mean you will. Engines have their own "personality" as I've come to find out and some have different "temperaments" to changes than others. besthaticouldo ran fine with his, but you may see knock or have MAF fluctuations that need to be adjusted to keep your fuel trims in check. You can slap it on there and PROBABLY be ok, but it never hurts to do some logs and verify your changes. Plus, the more you tweak the better the results can be. The base OTS maps from Cobb are ok, but there's always room for improvement. Especially with the notion that each engine has it's own temperament.
If you have questions about tuning and/or want some guidance do some reading in the ECU tuning section of the forum, follow the links provided, and if you have any questions please ask away! There's no stupid questions with this stuff. When a $20k+ car is at stake, all questions are welcome! I disagree with the bolded section. AEM has been tuning cars for a long long time. That CAI was designed to go directly onto a stock car. the OTS map will be more than fine for daily driving and stuff until he goes stage2 or more. Personally I did the AEM because it's a stockesque intake, I probably am at the point I need a larger MAF. But I would be willing to guarantee that intake will never have a problem, reflash your map and log a bit, but it'll be fine. It's designed to be safe on a stock motor. Definitely though log, you have to be 100% sure with everything on the car.
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Post by K Bomb on Sept 26, 2013 14:03:30 GMT -6
Cant you get an OTS maps for the AEM intake from Cobb?
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Post by xti on Sept 26, 2013 14:40:52 GMT -6
Cobb Accessport offers a map specifically for the AEM intake...just download it off Cobb's website and you are G2G.
As far as whether or not it's ok to run on a stock engine without a tune specifically for the AEM intake........who cares? There is a free tune for it on Cobb's website. Why anyone with an AP would run the AEM intake without the free available tune from Cobb is beyond me.
Download map > Install AEM > Load map > Smile and be happy
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2013 16:02:24 GMT -6
I disagree with the bolded section. AEM has been tuning cars for a long long time. That CAI was designed to go directly onto a stock car. the OTS map will be more than fine for daily driving and stuff until he goes stage2 or more. Personally I did the AEM because it's a stockesque intake, I probably am at the point I need a larger MAF. But I would be willing to guarantee that intake will never have a problem, reflash your map and log a bit, but it'll be fine. It's designed to be safe on a stock motor. Definitely though log, you have to be 100% sure with everything on the car. I completely understand what you mean, and I agree to a point. Yes, they design the maps specifically for the intake. Yes, they have designed the OTS maps to be safe. However, they are a shotgun blast efforts to cover all engines that the OTS map applies to. The timing tables, AFR curves, etc.... can vary from car to car. When your engine is built at the factory your ECU is then tied to your engine from that point forward in the assembly process. From there they are tested at the factory and the ECU that is tied to your car will be modified to accommodate any differences. It's not like a great dyno tune or anything, but adjustments are made for any variances that may be present from engine to engine. Now, Cobb creates OTS maps that, again, are a shotgun blast tune for all engines of your type for that map. Ask ANYONE that has used the stage 2 OTS map with a catless downpipe and you will hear about boost spikes and/or AFR swings all over the place. No matter what you do with an OTS map, TUNE FOR IT. Just throwing a map on a car and saying "yeah I'm good now" isn't a good way to go about adding power to your car. You may not be doing any immediate damage or anything, but you may be doing more to your car that could impact the engine farther down the power road. Again, I completely understand where you mean and I agree to a point, but no matter what, log, log, log when you do a reflash to confirm your car is happy with the bolt-on you've done, as well as, make sure you don't have more room too increase power with the new bolt-on.
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Post by besthaticouldo on Sept 27, 2013 6:52:44 GMT -6
I disagree with the bolded section. AEM has been tuning cars for a long long time. That CAI was designed to go directly onto a stock car. the OTS map will be more than fine for daily driving and stuff until he goes stage2 or more. Personally I did the AEM because it's a stockesque intake, I probably am at the point I need a larger MAF. But I would be willing to guarantee that intake will never have a problem, reflash your map and log a bit, but it'll be fine. It's designed to be safe on a stock motor. Definitely though log, you have to be 100% sure with everything on the car. I completely understand what you mean, and I agree to a point. Yes, they design the maps specifically for the intake. Yes, they have designed the OTS maps to be safe. However, they are a shotgun blast efforts to cover all engines that the OTS map applies to. The timing tables, AFR curves, etc.... can vary from car to car. When your engine is built at the factory your ECU is then tied to your engine from that point forward in the assembly process. From there they are tested at the factory and the ECU that is tied to your car will be modified to accommodate any differences. It's not like a great dyno tune or anything, but adjustments are made for any variances that may be present from engine to engine. Now, Cobb creates OTS maps that, again, are a shotgun blast tune for all engines of your type for that map. Ask ANYONE that has used the stage 2 OTS map with a catless downpipe and you will hear about boost spikes and/or AFR swings all over the place. No matter what you do with an OTS map, TUNE FOR IT. Just throwing a map on a car and saying "yeah I'm good now" isn't a good way to go about adding power to your car. You may not be doing any immediate damage or anything, but you may be doing more to your car that could impact the engine farther down the power road. Again, I completely understand where you mean and I agree to a point, but no matter what, log, log, log when you do a reflash to confirm your car is happy with the bolt-on you've done, as well as, make sure you don't have more room too increase power with the new bolt-on. Yep, here's the thing you're missing though. The AEM can be bolted on with zero adverse affects on a stock motor with zero changes to the map. The flow difference between it al the stock intake is minimal, and the MAF diameter is the exact same. People have run them on a completely stock car for thousands of miles with no problem. It was designed that way. The maps only harness the ceiling of the mod at that point. If you have an accessport and you're installing a CAI you're only a downpipe away from Stage2, so you should get a real tune anyway. I hate OTS maps, they are too safe and really limit the car. I agree just throwing a map on and saying it's good isn't a great plan, but it's different adding an intake designed for a stock system vs saying throwing an EBCS and excepting everything is going to be ok. Anyone that used an OTS stage2 map with a catless downpipe obviously wasn't paying attention when they read the description from COBB saying it's for a CATTED downpipe, it's not meant for a catless downpipe. That's a different scenario completely IMO, that's improper pairing of parts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 9:31:34 GMT -6
Ahhhh. Now I REALLY see what you're saying. LOL! The CAI being designed to flow the same as the stock airbox SHOULD mean no need to tune for it. I'm not R&D specialist I know, so take this with a grain of salt. LOL! I just think about the design. if it's a CAI, and uses smooth tubing with a less restrictive filter element. I would also assume the flow would be higher and therefore change the dynamics of the MAF sensor. Though, based on what you stated, I definitely see where the AEM CAI is a good one to just bolt on and not have to worry nearly as much as the other intakes out there. TurboXS (mine) for example, took forever to get scaled right just because of the temp swings. That stupid thing may get cold air, but the intake tube heats up so quick it's pointless. Only reason I went with it is that I had to for the FMIC I'm running. Ugh. Anyway, hopefully I didn't come across as arguing or anything. I just didn't see the full picture. Thanks for the info as usual, Derrick!!
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Post by memmek2k on Sept 27, 2013 11:48:39 GMT -6
Eddie - you want to wrap your intake at all? We could do that sometime pretty easily. Aluminum foil should reflect some of the radiant heat, at least. Or header wrap. Or powder coat if it's a metal tube.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 11:50:00 GMT -6
Already picked up some foil-backed heat tape at autozone for like $20. Helps out quite a bit when you flow air. When you just idle, the intake temps skyrocket like it does without the tape.
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Post by memmek2k on Sept 27, 2013 12:01:27 GMT -6
That happens with any intake, I think. Part of what makes drag racing and autocross so hard on coolant systems.
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ryanr
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by ryanr on Sept 30, 2013 12:36:13 GMT -6
So... if the AEM intake is designed to flow the same as the stock intake, then whats the point of buying it besides the "bling" factor? The whole point of an aftermarket intake is to remove some restriction from the intake tract. Just because the MAF housing diameter is the same does not mean the filter material flows the same. There are separate MAF scalings out there for a paper filter v. a k&n filter. Will the AEM intake probably be fine? Yes just because the OTS maps are rich for safety to cover the "shotgun" effect that Eddie was referring to. Adding an intake (within reason!) to a map like this may actually be somewhat beneficial to lean the car out somewhat at higher MAF voltages but it is never a bad idea to look at the AP to check for knock here and there. I helped a friend build his car to the T of one of COBB's maps and it pulled 4deg regularly which, as a tuner, scares me because I am anal about that and try to never get any knock.
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Post by besthaticouldo on Sept 30, 2013 12:52:42 GMT -6
So... if the AEM intake is designed to flow the exact same as the stock intake, then whats the point of buying it besides the "bling" factor? The whole point of an aftermarket intake is to remove some restriction from the intake tract. Just because the MAF housing diameter is the same does not mean the filter material flows the same. There are separate MAF scalings out there for a paper filter v. a k&n filter. Will the AEM intake probably be fine? Yes just because the OTS maps are rich for safety to cover the "shotgun" effect that Eddie was referring to. Adding an intake (within reason!) to a map like this may actually be somewhat beneficial to lean the car out somewhat at higher MAF voltages but it is never a bad idea to look at the AP to check for knock here and there. I helped a friend build his car to the T of one of COBB's maps and it pulled 4deg regularly which, as a tuner, scares me because I am anal about that and try to never get any knock. Continue install day discussion! There are different MAF scalings and tables. HOWEVER, the engineers at AEM designed it to function even on a stock tune, not even a COBB OTS map. There is no real point to most intakes, as the stock airbox on our car has been well above 500whp without a problem on the stock filter no less. We have almost nothing between the stock box and inlet.
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ryanr
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by ryanr on Sept 30, 2013 13:01:51 GMT -6
I agree about the stock air box. And um... unless english has changed, the definition of a tuner is one who has tuned cars. Are you a driver? One who drives cars? I have tuned upwards of 15. I never once claimed to be a PROFESSIONAL of any sort. The fact of the matter is that I have never charged any money for any work engine or tuning related. I help people to come to me and ask for help. Period. No need for attitude. This is a civil discussion.... lmgtfy.com/?q=car+tuner+definition
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 14:44:38 GMT -6
Starter thread for a discussion on using aftermarket CAI (Cold Air Intakes) or SR (Short Ram) intakes and discuss any need for tuning and/or OTS maps that can be used with them......aaaaand....GO!
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Post by memmek2k on Sept 30, 2013 15:27:46 GMT -6
Here's a question - why isn't the MAF behind the turbo? Then we wouldn't have this issue at all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 15:40:24 GMT -6
IIRC, it's because of the turbulence created by the turbo once you go into boost. That'd be damn near impossible to read MAF voltage from.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 15:45:00 GMT -6
BTW, besthaticouldo I didn't mean to start this thread with your post. Looks random. LOL! I started this thread with my post and then moved the others after that. For some reason, ProBoards' infinite wisdom has it so that moved posts are added from the bottom up. Dummies.
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Post by besthaticouldo on Sept 30, 2013 16:04:27 GMT -6
I agree about the stock air box. And um... unless english has changed, the definition of a tuner is one who has tuned cars. Are you a driver? One who drives cars? I have tuned upwards of 15. I never once claimed to be a PROFESSIONAL of any sort. The fact of the matter is that I have never charged any money for any work engine or tuning related. I help people to come to me and ask for help. Period. No need for attitude. This is a civil discussion.... lmgtfy.com/?q=car+tuner+definitionProblem is you can't give people bad information and call it helping. The way the AEM is designed, by engineers with massive R&D budgets, is to work on a stock tune. You can run it that way for ever and ever and NEVER have a problem. Really without changing the MAF diameter or voltage on a Subaru you should be able to run any intake. The turbo and it's flow is going to make far more of a difference, like changing the inlet. It's all filtered through an inlet before the turbo anyway. So no matter how fast you get the air into the inlet doesn't matter. There are tons of intakes that do not require an intake. ALSO, the older generations had far more of a problem than the newer cars (GR vs GD/GC). I've seen stock logs with an AEM before and after stock airbox and they were nearly identical. ZERO knock, zero det, no difference in AFR or boost. The AEM is basically a sound machine and a bling factor. MAF tuning is the biggest joke, if you want reliable and good power you want to go speed density.
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ryanr
Junior Member
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Post by ryanr on Oct 1, 2013 7:54:33 GMT -6
Please tell me which information is bad if you are going to make a statement like that. I can see where an intake could be made to work with a stock tune as the stock tune is very rich and if they can lean it out a little then great! The stock map can use a good leaning out and timing smoothing plus the aftermarket manufactures can claim performance gains to back up their product. Just because it may or may not lean it out does not mean it will throw a CEL. And yes, I agree that the turbo will make a greater difference. But the engine's volumetric efficiency is determined from everything from the air filter to the exhaust tip, not just post-maf. The stock air box produces a turbulent air flow across the MAF sensor whereas the aftermarket intakes utilize a smoother piping design to increase VE. These companies are doing the same thing to the intake that you are attempting to accomplish with a silicone post-MAF or turbo inlet. Subaru is a cheap company. Im sure any person with one can pick out a part on their car and say "WTF were they thinking!?". Subaru uses the cheaper end of MAF sensors with the hot wire sensor. Its cheap and works but it does not perform nearly as well as a blow through or a sensor with a screen in front of the sensor (to somewhat iron out the turbulence by theory) due to the fact that it has such a small cross section. Subaru knows exactly what the flow and turbulence is like past the sensor on the stock setup, thus they scaled it accordingly for that setup. But even with a bone stock car, there may be variations in mold castings or anything else production-wise that could lead to each car being slightly different. In some cases, it doesn't even hurt to rescale a brand new stock car just for that extra accuracy. You seem to push TP tunes a lot. I have no problem with that. Whoever makes them does a great job! Turned my buddy's 2013 WRX upside down. But why would a well respected tuner include a tune for all different intakes when a stage 1 map is purchased unless there is a difference? Timing and all other things are constant on these maps as well. The only difference is the MAF scaling. In order from top to bottom is Stock airbox/filter, AEM, COBB, K&N. I agree that MAF scaling SHOULDN'T be necessary in an ideal world, but these cars are far from ideal. And the more power you make, the more it comes down to little things like this to get the AFRs spot on, or get the tip-in to be more reliable, etc. And the more power you make, it is the wise thing to do to go SD, not the other way around which is to go SD to make more power. SD simply gives more resolution for tables and greater accuracy over fueling with the VE table. Plus it eliminates the need for that pesky MAF sensor that sparked this whole debate. lol
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Post by memmek2k on Oct 1, 2013 17:15:30 GMT -6
I got an official response from AEM today: If I am understanding things correctly, AEM has designed their intake to basically give the fueling tables a stage 1 treatment. So running the AEM CAI with NO TUNE is the "same" as running the stock intake with tuned MAF and fuel tables. This is why there is no issue running just the AEM CAI with no tune, but also why everyone offers stage 1+ and 2+ maps for all the various intakes. This also explains how they got this ridiculous power gain out of an untuned STI. The takeaway: if you have just the AEM CAI and no tune, you will be fine. If you are stage 1/2 and have the AEM CAI, 1) there is no reason not to get the tune for it, no matter your tuning method (because it's so damn easy and you are obviously concerned with getting the most power out of your setup) and 2) the air and fuel tables will be off from this intake. How much off is a gamble for the user.
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joellg
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by joellg on Oct 2, 2013 7:09:53 GMT -6
I got an official response from AEM today: If I am understanding things correctly, AEM has designed their intake to basically give the fueling tables a stage 1 treatment. So running the AEM CAI with NO TUNE is the "same" as running the stock intake with tuned MAF and fuel tables. This is why there is no issue running just the AEM CAI with no tune, but also why everyone offers stage 1+ and 2+ maps for all the various intakes. This also explains how they got this ridiculous power gain out of an untuned STI. The takeaway: if you have just the AEM CAI and no tune, you will be fine. If you are stage 1/2 and have the AEM CAI, 1) there is no reason not to get the tune for it, no matter your tuning method (because it's so damn easy and you are obviously concerned with getting the most power out of your setup) and 2) the air and fuel tables will be off from this intake. How much off is a gamble for the user. Well, if it requires no tune IF on stock levels, Id say it does need a tune stage 1 and up. Ive always believed with these cars, any mods at all with the engine, get a tune, even if its OTS. As much as I appreciate all the opinions on here, I have seen so many times, people who try to tune with opensource, and have screwed up their and others cars. I dont have the time to learn, nor the money to keep fixing what I broke, so I pay someone. Most of the tuners I have looked into, dont like opensource, but there are some out there, and have them road tune, or at least dyno tune your car. Guys spend all this money on mods, then try to save money by tuning themself, then things break, and it now becomes the engine builder's fault in their eyes. If you dont even know how load the tuning program into your computer, then Id say factor in your budget a tune from a reputable tuner. This statement is not intended for RyanR, who is a friend, its just referencing what Ive seen in the last 10 years of owning and tuning subarus. Im not a fan of opensource, Id buy a cobb AP anyday, and have it pro-tuned. Again, just my opinion. If you have the money to break things numerous times, or have someone else break your things, then have a ball learning it. End rant. I dont want to discourage anyone from trying to learn, just go to a reputable tuner who is willing to teach you. Dont learn from forums. Joel's $0.02
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ryanr
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by ryanr on Oct 2, 2013 11:23:10 GMT -6
I agree with what Joel says about the tuning of mods. But it is slightly unfair to say that only people who use OS break stuff. With an AP you have access to COBB's version of a tuning software that allows any user to make changes (as long as the map is not locked). The reason that many of them dont make their own changes is because they paid $400+ for the unit so they could get the stage X maps or have a reputable tuner do it (who doesn't associate with OS), generally speaking. This is not always the case though but using an AP from a plug and play perspective is most definitely easier I will say. Many tuners do not like OS anymore because they are unable to lock their tunes, whereas with an AP they can protect it. Makes sense. If I were them, I would do the same. I think (correct me if Im wrong) that the people who do OS themselves are drawn to it because they like to learn what all goes on inside a car's brain. For me, I like the feeling of knowing that I am the one that has taken my car from a stock platform to a modified one and have had my hands in it every step of the way. Could another tuner's map make more power? There's no doubt about it. I actually enjoyed learning how to use OS as someone who likes to know how things work. But I can't speak for everyone. It does take months and months of reading and emailing reputable tuners for advice, etc. You are always going to have those guys that rush into things and make a mess. Many of the people on Romraider ARE reputable tuners. You just have to pick and choose who you listen to like any forum. NSFW, ride5000, merp, merchgod (who if Im not mistaken works/worked for COBB), fastblueufo just to name a few.
The bottom line is it is a matter of preference (OS v. AP) or a matter of what tuner you want to deal with and what application they prefer. Both have the potential to accomplish the same thing.
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